Link to Audio Podcast: https://www.bravevoices.fieldscenter.princeton.edu/native-indigenous-voices

Interview with Zoe Toledo '18 & Keely Toledo '22

Hosted by Myra Ridhuan ‘27

Myra Ridhuan '27 (00:05)

To get us started, we'll just start off with introductions, which is just name, class year, and concentration. And feel free to also share your tribal affiliation, your nation, your clan, or the tribal community that you come from. And if you also wish to share this in your Native or Indigenous language, please do so. And is there someone that would like to go first?

Zoe Toledo '18 (00:26)

So my name is Zoe Toledo. I am the class of 2018 and I actually majored in architecture. But, you know, in our way, we always introduce ourselves through our clans. And so, [Zoe’s introduction in Native and/or Indigenous language]. And this is my sister, Keely, who I'm just gonna let her introduce herself too.

Keely Toledo '22 (00:55)

[Keely’s introduction in Native and/or Indigenous language]. Ahéhee for having us here. My name is Keely Toledo. I graduated class of 2022 and I studied anthropology.

Zoe Toledo '18 (01:12)

And so it's really exciting. You know, what we shared with you was our four clans. And our first clan comes from our mother, Topoha, which is edge water. And our second clan is Oshkoshni, mud. And when I think about both of us together, I kind of love that we're water and mud. Because for me, as you know, studying architecture, thinking about building, those are some of the most element plots of, you know, building, right?

Water, mud, adobe, homes. And for you as an archaeologist, it's such a strong element of the land in some ways.

Myra Ridhuan '27 (01:46)

Thank you for sharing that. That was beautiful, honestly. And again, thank you for your time here. And so now we'll move on to the next section. So there are different sections to the interview. Community and environment, identity, administration, campus life. And we'll move on to the next section, community and environment. So the next question is, how did Princeton's environment compare to the environment you were raised or grew up in? And what was your experience like your first year at Princeton? And how did you adjust to the transition at Princeton?

Zoe Toledo '18 (02:16)

You know, I really love this question because I think for both of us that answer is so different.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (02:22)

I agree. Yeah.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (02:24)

And so I remember for me, you know, I remember when I was first here, I'm the oldest sister and that's a role that I really am quite fond of and love being able to take care of people around me. And I remember that first time I came to Princeton, it was Preview Day and I had accepted, right?

And I remember walking up kind of that pathway near Blair Arch and you see the whole campus expand in front of you. And I just remember feeling like this place was so different. It almost felt like I should be walking around with an apple and like a book on the law of something or the physics of something. And I was like, these are where all the smart people are. And I think that was like such a weird feeling. It felt very otherworldly too, in a way.

Do you remember the first time you came here?

Keely Toledo '22 (03:15)

I remember... I had come here... I think the first time was... for preview as well.

This was back in 2016, 2017, I think the spring 2017, and Princeton had bought my ticket to come out. I was so excited. And then I met you. I met up with you and I don’t know, like I remember feeling like this was such a different space, but I was mostly excited to just see you. And then I was like, all my memories are associated with like, I'm going to go see my sister, I’m gonna go hang out with her cool, upperclassmen friends. I have to go to all these things too. And yeah, I think I heavily associated my first memories of just being reunited with you. ⁓

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (04:00)

That’s so sweet!

It’s so interesting, because I remember for me that first year, as much as there was awe, there was also a lot of growth, a lot of fear and anxiety. I remember my first year, I remember I'd come out of writing sem and I had this distinct feeling that I did not know how to read or write. And that was so weird because back home, those were kind of the things that grounded me, was being able to learn, be curious.

The other things that really grounded me from home were the mountains, being able to see my horizons, being able to know where the sun comes, how it rises. And then also, what also grounded me at home was, you know, my sense of kin, my kinship, my family, the people I cared about. And so you come here and all of a sudden it's-

Keely Toledo ‘22 (04:51)

Gone.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (04:52)

It's different. It's so different. And I remember that first year I was like literally on the phone with my mother. I was in front of you know, Blair Arch, I remember telling her, I was like, I don't think I'm going to be able to do this. I was like, I need to learn how to read.

Keely Toledo '22 (05:10)

I need to learn how to write. I need to learn how to speak.

Zoe Toledo '18 (05:14)

But I think in a similar way, I think my first year was a lot of kind of finding grounding and what makes me feel strong and what makes me feel happy. And for me, that was family. And so it was so interesting because I remember the first year you were here, I just, I didn't want you to feel what I felt that first year.

Keely Toledo '22 (05:35)

Yeah. I remember, I remember starting. I remember feeling like I had a better, like grounding on campus because it's like I had my older sister, had her friends who made it known that they would, they would look after me and that they would like help me and, and they were so willing to connect me to so many resources. And I was able to hear a lot of good and what they liked about Princeton from their years, which was really nice. And I think I came into it a little, like I remember thinking like I knew a little bit more than like my peers around me because I had an older sister. So like, I don't know if that was good or bad because like I had my Zee group. I had my Zee leader. I had my academic advisor, and they're like, ‘we’re here for you’ and I was like, thank you so much. I'm going to go ask my sister's friends.

Not to say like they weren't wonderful people. I did end up like depending on them a lot. And I remember Zoe telling me like, she was so excited to have me here and I could feel the love and instant support. And I also remember feeling what you talked about, just like not being good at anything because in the high school, like I was good at writing. That's what like I was, not known for, but like, like that's what I thought that I was good at, was like writing and reading. And then I got here and I had like the hardest time ever. And I remember like picking up things and just trying to figure out like my own passions and what I was good at.

And like I kind of floundered. I was taking, I was very susceptible to other people's passions at that point and she can talk about this, and it's like, I was, maybe it was like I was rebelling too because it was like, Zoe mentioned being an older sister and like when you usually go to college, you're like, woohoo, I don't know anyone here. No one knows like a past version of me. I can do whatever I want. So I say this with love. Like I really appreciated how she came and supported me, but I don't know a part of me was also like, let me be my own person like I'm what like 18 at this point. 17-18, I’m like, I can do what I want. I don't need you to tell me what to do. Like, ⁓ Oh this place isn't like terrible. ⁓

I mean, I would learn later, like, how tough it was, but I think like, I don’t know, I was trying to like shift back into having an older sister at the university with me, but also like figuring out my own personal identities and figuring out my own things that I wanted to pursue. But, I mean to say as tough as it was like…I learned a lot. And I think like being challenged and being put in a position where you’re given a general direction to go really made me understand how important it is to just make your own decisions and rely and like really focus and trust your sense of self and like reasonings on why you do things, which was hard to do. It was really hard.

Myra Ridhuan '27 (08:24)

That was wonderful. Thank you both for sharing your stories on that. And then a follow up question to that is what was your relationship like with your family? Well, you kind of touched on your relationship with Zoe while you were here, but if you would like to elaborate more, feel free to do so. So what was your relationship like with your family and your tribal or Indigenous community while you were at Princeton, and did being at Princeton change that?

Zoe Toledo '18 (08:46)

I think this is such a great question and I'd be kind of curious to see what you have to say too. But you know, for me, Princeton was the first place that I remember actively saying and kind of, you know, in some ways declaring that I am Diné. I am a Navajo woman. And it was the first place I think that I felt almost an obligation to teach others what that meant in a way.

And there were definitely moments of kind of like I questioned, I'm like, am I the person to do that? Cause again, you're still quite young. You're figuring out who you are, what you like to do. And especially within the context of Princeton, I think I became very fixated on how would that impact my course of studies? And so I remember, you know, taking all these courses. I remember taking a history of the American West class.

And I remember walking into that classroom and just being kind of odd with like, you know, just this whole pedagogy of like how my people's stories have been told. I remember walking in and taking my first architecture studio. And I remember really falling in love with it only because architecture is this place of translation.

You're learning to take value stories and translate them into visuals like drawings and models. And when I think about, you know, how that impacted my Native identity, in some ways it created this wonderful balance for me to think about how do I talk and share about our stories? And then how do I pursue that as a way of thinking and a way of learning within kind of the strict and sometimes what almost appears confining means of learning that we're given here at Princeton, right? And so for me, I don't know, I think we both are really, our mother is an amazing storyteller. She was always good about reminding us where we came from and who we are. You know, she would tell us stories about her herding sheep, you know, how she used to live in a hogan with her grandparents, our great grandparents. She always let us know who we are from and where we came from.

And so I remember being here at Princeton and I was like, that's how I learned history. That's how I learned how we talk about our stories, how we talk about people and place. And so I remember as I was here, I was really confused. was like, you know, how does that something that feels really personal and, you know, very calming and grounding, like the sense of oral histories and knowing where you come from, how does that impact, you know, academics?

And so I was looking for a place that would allow me to kind of find that comfort and architecture ended up being it for me. But what about you?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (11:38)

Yeah, I think like for me, like, Zoe…once she left, like once she graduated that second year of my, my academic career was really hard, because I had like lost a family member, not in like, it

sounds really dramatic and I have like, I'm like, yes, I had no one all of a sudden. It was all me and I finally, like, I remember feeling like oh my gosh, I feel so alone. And was this how my older sister felt like her first, first years and stuff? And I remember, I remember I was like really struggling trying to figure out like, I had interest, but I didn't know which like academic program or like concentration suited my needs. And I remember, I remember I would call my, my grandpa a lot and I, would always just be like, hey, hey grandpa, like I don’t know what to do.

Sorry, I'm just like... I'm just remembering how hard it was.

Myra Riddhuan ‘27 (12:38)

It's okay, you can take your time.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (12:42)

Gosh, I hadn’t thought about that in forever.

And he'd be like, he'd tell me on the phone and he'd be like, he'd be like, this is, it's really good that you're there. And he’d tell me like you need to get an education. It was like, it's really important you get an education. And he was like, there was a time in our family history where, he’d say, edu-ma-cation, he said, there’s a time in history, he said, my mom was against edumacation. She was against it. And I would later learn and find out that like, my great grandma was against education because in that time on the Navajo res, like students were taken to go get education somewhere else. And it meant like they would, they could be gone. They could lose someone. And it's just like, it's crazy that over just even like two generations, like from, so like my great grandma to my grandpa, he was like, no, you need to get this. You need to go to school. And he would just be like, you just got to take it one day at a time. And then he was like, and we're proud of you. He's like, we're proud of you that you're there. And he's like, I'm proud of you. This old man out here in Arizona is really proud of you. And then he would, it was just, yeah. And I think like, I had like for me, everything tied back to my family. And I remember thinking at times like, my older sister did this. I can do it too. And I always had my family at home to say like, okay, if it sucks that bad, you can always come home. You can always come home.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (14:16)

And then you're like, no!

Keely Toledo ‘22 (14:17)

And they're like, we'll love you regardless and I'd be like, no, I got in, I have to do this.

I'm here. I might as well just do my best and stay. And I think like, just having that, I remember at one point in my academic career, like I took a year off as well. And I think that year really, really helped me. And during that time, I just was road tripping around with my mom for like a whole year in the Southwest. And I remember, I remember reading a lot because I left Princeton.

And I had to, I had to really ask myself questions of like, why did I want to go here? Why, why did I try so hard? Why did past Keely really want this? What am I fighting for? Which I had never had that moment to like, critically reflect. And I remember being at home. I remember having to like soul search and write all of these things down. And one thing that brought me comfort during that time was reading. And my mom and I, would always, you know this too, we would go around to bookstores. In like different towns, like mining towns or just like random towns in the Southwest. And I'd always go to a bookstore and I'd pick off books in the Native American literature section. And I'd be like, oh, I don't have this one. Oh, sweet. It's $12.99. I'm going to take it home. And then from there, I just started reading and collecting books. And by the time I came back, I remember I had one of my Rocky staff ask me like, Keely, that's like Native Studies and like Indigenous studies you're doing. You should consider anthropology and sociology and stuff and I'd be like, that doesn't make me money.

That's what I told you. I said, I said, I'm the can't make money as like, I can't make money with like a sociology degree. Like my, like my mom said I shouldn't be a sociologist. And the funny thing was like, the lady I was talking to was like, I have a degree in sociology.

⁓ I was like, no way. She says, I clearly have a job. And she said, you can do lots with a sociology degree.

And then somehow I found anthropology and that's yeah. So that’s my story. Sorry I like, went all over, but I think that the core of this is like, my family was at the heart of it all. And I think like reminding ourselves. People talk about like challenges that your ancestors have faced and it's like, I know those change over the times. And I don't know, like I've always been a firm believer that I was born at the right time. Like this is a challenge that I was capable to do like, battling through a higher education system at a really prestigious university was something that I felt, I don't know, capable of. Like, I was like, this is my time. Like, I'm okay to do this.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (16:50)

It is your time.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (16:51)

Now or never kind of thing. Yeah.

Myra Ridhuan '27 (16:54)

That was wonderful.

Thank you both for sharing all of your stories and perspectives on that. And then the next question is, did you find a community at Princeton? If so, can you recall the first time you felt this way?

Zoe Toledo '18 (17:07)

Ooo, this is also a good question...You know, for me, I think community can mean so many things, right? It's where you feel a sense of belonging. It's where you feel nourished. And for me, a lot of that community came in so many different little pockets, right? That helped ground me. And so I remember doing FSI before I matriculated in and that summer, kind of ahead of the freshman year, I made some of my strongest friends to this day. They, they were the ones who really, think we all had a shared understanding of what it meant to navigate this place together. Those moments of doubt, those moments of celebration, those late night Wawa runs. It was beautiful. And then I think as I progressed through my Princeton career, I found community in, you know, my department.

I really fell in love with architecture and all that it was. And I think that's where I really found a sense of faith in my capabilities of how I think and how I want to learn. And that was new. That was almost an, you know, a learning community that I hadn’t anticipated. And I really loved it. I really loved being able to write a thesis. I really enjoyed being able to make models and think about buildings and place and the best part was that it helped me feel more connected to our community back home. That was another one, right? The sense of, you know, being in the presence of other Native people, right? And, you know, at the time, you know, there weren't that very many Native students when I was first here. So we had Natives at Princeton and there were some really great people. I remember Emery Real Bird was one of the biggest champions in bringing us together.

I remember that first year we went to the symposium and it was the Ivy Native Council, Inc. And I found a lot of community meeting there, like all the other Native students of the different Ivy Leagues. And it was just amazing. You realize that we're all here. And just to have that mass, like imagine a whole auditorium just filled with Native students from all across the Ivy League. And that was empowering to see. You know, at Princeton, there was five of us, but together we could all fill an auditorium.

And that was amazing just to know that they were there, maybe not physically here. And like some of those friendships, like I still see them to this day. But what about you?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (19:41)

I think like, I remember coming in, I really clicked with my OA group. So I think like, just like Zoe said, I had different pockets of people that were my community. I also did like, I really found like really strong friendship with the people in my dorm and in my Zee group. And we just hung out all the time.

I think later on like, NAP wasn't a super big thing, like Natives at Princeton. It grew over like my university career and slowly but surely like we had more people coming out of the woodworks of being like, oh yeah, like, yeah, I'm Native. I didn't know this group existed. Yeah. And I think like in my latter years, we had finally grown to a group of maybe 15 and that was really awesome to see because like, yeah, there's only five when you came in or when you were here.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (20:26)

I can't even remember the exact count.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (20:29)

Yeah, it was very small. Really small.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (20:31)

You could count on one hand.

Keely Toledo '22 (20:32)

Yeah, literally.

And I think like who else were my supporters? I was in the orchestra. I loved the orchestra community. I found like some really good friends within the Native students. Like we were small, but we were mighty. And like we knew how to like organize and we knew like, we knew the importance of like having a space and being together. Yeah. And I think like as hard as it was, we all knew that like were the ones we could support each other the best because we knew what we're all going through.

Myra Ridhuan ‘27 (21:05)

Yeah, that was wonderful.

Thank you again for sharing your perspectives on that question. I do want to make time for the other sections in the interview, so we're going to skip down to identity. With the first question being, did being at Princeton change the way you perceive yourself as Native or Indigenous, which I know you briefly touched upon before, but if you would like to elaborate, feel free to do so.

Keely Toledo '22 (21:26)

I think like growing up, I wasn't really ever asked to speak on the well-being of the Navajo Nation, like every people. And it's like no one really... We grew up in Northern Utah, so there's a lot of very predominantly white, so people weren't... Either they just weren't interested or they just didn't feel it was appropriate to ever ask, like, oh you look different. What are you, kind of thing. And like when I got here, I quickly learned that, and even through the college application process, like being able to talk about like your identity in a way of saying like, this has a real influence on how I experienced the world and how people treat me, how people talk to me.

And I remember like sitting in class once and we're talking about how cities are built in like central Mexico. And like, I remember one professor, she was talking like, it really stuck with me and she's mentioning that she's like, yeah, cities and we're talking about poverty and we're thinking about development. And she was like, location is everything. Like sometimes people have to move places or like if you're trying to get out of like a situation, you, you just, go to different place. And then I was like, but what if you can't leave? Like, what if it's your homeland? How are you supposed to expect a tile of people to just get up and leave?

And that was like a real, I don't know, was like a big breaking point in my little mind. Cause I was like, not everything can be solved by moving around. But anyways, I guess to bring it back to the home base is like, I quickly understood and learned being in these like higher education spaces, people really value or just they want to know what your opinion is when it comes to like representing your whole tribe or your nation. And at first like, I was very hesitant to being like, look, I'm just one person from here. Like I'm not a tribal councilman. I'm not the president. I mean, I have thoughts. But like, I don't think I should be the sole speaker of a people. And I think it's a balance because I've seen instances where people do really step into that role and they speak for an entire people or speak for an entire nation. And that can have a wide influence on how people think about tribes. And it was uncomfortable, I think, like you're very young and like, you don't know why your tribal leaders have made certain decisions that have resonated decades later, but I remember also learning the importance of speaking up, especially in classes. And so I was in like environmental classes. I was taking anthropology and like social sciences and some kids had never like knew that there are Native people still alive.

I think I would get a lot of stories of people being like, yeah, like I've driven through Southern, like the Southwest. Like I loved seeing all the beautiful mountains. There's people out there. Like, what, people still live out there. And I'd be like, yeah, like that's crazy. How do you not know there's like so many Native nations and can you name like one of them? And they're like, no, like they're just Indians. And it's like, you have to, I think like every person you meet, I try to like understand and meet them where they know about like Native Americans. And some people are just totally, totally in the dark and perhaps it's ignorance, but I also think it's a reflection that schools don't teach that history. And I think like I've had mixed experiences where someone is saying things and they don't understand how it's impacting or they think it's okay to say something and then it's up to like person there, the Native in the room to speak up, which is hard. I don't know. What are you feeling? What are your thoughts?

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (25:03)

I think Keely brings up a lot of good points. There's like this, as you're progressing through Princeton, right? And perhaps you guys have felt this at some way. There is a level of awareness that by attending this institution, you inherently have a little bit of privilege being bestowed on top of you. And when you enter spaces where that name holds weight, all of a sudden you are seen potentially as a leader, as being able to provide insight or direction by virtue of simply, you know, attending this institution. And I think, you know, in hearing Keely share her story, there was also, I think, something we were also grappling with the fact of being in these spaces. We were being seen in a way that we've never thought of ourselves as before.

We've never had to think of ourselves as leaders, never thought of ourselves as representatives. You know, we were taught to be daughters, granddaughters, sisters, relationships of reciprocity, not ones of one-directional oversight. And so going through Princeton, I think for me and my relationship to Native identity, I think that was something that both of us were kind of grappling with.

Is that once you leave this institution, people do, by virtue of having attended, they do see you differently. But then by also virtue of us growing up with our family history, our stories, our knowing, there was a sense of, that's not all that we are. And so you learn to balance. You learn to balance both worlds and you try to see how they inform one another. And I think for me, that was something that I had never thought about until I attended this place.

And I think it's something that I graduated class of 2018. I think I'm five years out and those are still things I think about is like, what does it mean for me to have gone to this place and be in places where, you know, that's valued, that experience is valued. But if I were to go into, you know, my community, they value that, but not in the same way as, you know, maybe outsiders would.

And I think I had to learn to understand, you know, both perspectives. Walk these two worlds as we often say, but I think it's a balance and you learn. You learn to see what one way of thinking allows you to do and operate and what are kind of those reciprocities that you wish to move forward with.

Keely Toledo '22 (27:42)

Such a good speaker.

Ditto. What she said.

Myra Ridhuan '27 (27:49)

You guys are both wonderful at speaking. Very eloquent.

Keely Toledo '22 (27:54)

Thank you. ⁓

Do you think we need a group hug after this?

Myra Ridhuan '27 (28:01)

I think I'm going to skip down to the next section, administration, with the first question being, if there is one change that the Princeton leadership could make to improve experiences for Native and Indigenous students on campus, what would that be?

Zoe Toledo '18 (28:14)

Ooh, this is a good one. Would you like to go or would you like me to go?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (28:19)

I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (28:21)

I think Keely and I had very different experiences and I think Keely will be able to share her story and her thoughts. I think for me, the hardest thing is to make someone feel included, right? And inclusion happens in so many unique and different ways that it's really difficult to formulate that.

But I think when it comes to thinking about Native and Indigenous students, there is this sense of, know, in our story, we talked a lot about being able to connect back to our family, connect back to our ancestry, connect back to our homeland, a sense of knowing of who we are and how we keep that balance. And I think when you want to bring more Native students to Princeton, you have to be aware that those connections are so beautiful.

And at the same time, so, so delicate. And so for those to grow, there needs to be a way for students to maintain that sense of belonging. You know, we were lucky in that we just had the presence of each other.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (29:27)

Yeah.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (29:28)

But, you know, for some students, that's not possible, you know? There's financial limitations, there's time limitations, you know?

If you live in remote areas, like getting to airport or anything is hard. And so would say the biggest thing is like recognizing that Native student experiences is a spectrum. It's so different depending on which nation you come from or how you were raised or how you even were taught that sense of belonging. Cause everyone has taught it differently. Keely and I were taught a lot through family history and stories and being in the presence of our loved ones.

For others, it might be a little bit different. And so that's part of it. I think also the second one is for me, I think there is a difference in creating a community and having the energy for like student activities and then also developing say an Indigenous Studies program. I think those are two separate endeavors. And just because if you have one, doesn't mean the other one will thrive. They're kind of separate things. You have to grow together. What are your thoughts?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (30:36)

I agree. I like how you differentiated the different needs. And I think you touch up on a good like, and I think like one thing, like during my time at Princeton, PIAC, the Princeton Indigenous Advocacy Coalition, maybe just a handful of students both Native and non-Native, when we really were trying to drive advocacy of Native students and just Native American Indigenous studies and, and student support. So like in my latter years I think like 2020, 2021, 2022, we saw a lot of student organization.

We had a lot of students reaching out to faculty and saying, like, hey, you have sort of like Indigenous studies taught in your courses. Like we’re creating a website to show that there is at least interest in Indigenous studies that is already present on campus.

And like one of my good friends, Jessica Lambert, who's Choctaw and Eastern Cherokee like she and I, we made a report. We did like an analysis of like the university’s policies, the university's mission. We were advocating for like, an Indigenous Studies program. We advocated for someone to be a person dedicated to Native student applications in the admissions office. We advocated for a gathering space or an affinity room. And we're also saying and advocating that like we needed a faculty person, more Native faculty at Princeton if there was supposed to be an Indigenous Studies program.

It's just like there's a lot of things and I think like through that, through the research and just like talking to our peer institutions at other, like the Ivy Native Conference, we talked to a lot of students at the other Ivies and we said, hey, what is your experience like as a Native Student? Oh, you guys have a college program office that's like dedicated to your wellbeing that's like a resource center? Like that's awesome. Like, oh my gosh, you guys have professors and you're able to do all these fun field trips and research. And it's like, we brought that to the university and was like, hey, these are the things that our peer institutions are doing. And they have a lot more Native students.

A lot of these Native students are choosing Dartmouth over Princeton. You have people going to Columbia over Princeton. We have a lot more Natives at Brown than Princeton, and that’s because they had more things in place that said to Native students like, hey, we're taking you guys seriously. We see just how special your cultures and where you come from. And we think it would be great addition, like expanding how we talk about things within academia and just like other ways of connecting and relating to the world and seeing like similarities those traits across

so many tribes. Like, you talk to one Indigenous person from like, I live in Hawai'i now, you talk to someone who's native Hawaiian, and we have so many similarities related to family. We have so many similarities in how we think about land and just how hands-on earth cycles are with people and how that has an impact on just like how we live our lives.

So like having all of that going on in the background, I think like going back what Zoe said, I think the thing the university should know first, like you can't manufacture a connection to culture. You can't, the university is not a knowledge holder. The university is not an elder. They are not the way to teach people what it's like to be Native. And that's like, it doesn't come easily to think, cause like people will be like, well, knowledge is power. Like you accumulate knowledge, you learn about a people and that's what you see in anthropology too of being like, well, I know all of this about this one tribe cause I studied this one tribe for years, like, but I'm not part of the tribe because I'm not, like I wasn't born into it. Like I might know a lot, but that doesn't make you be able to be a spokesperson for an entire people. So I think like knowing all of that, it's just really really difficult to create within academia that, that special community, especially when it's tied to land and your whole personhood is tied to a specific region or to mountains that your people have, you know, been in kinship with.

How am I supposed to feel like I'm in the Southwest or with my whole family when this is not the Southwest kind of thing. So I think like that's important to know that like you can't replicate what we feel in our communities within our families in Princeton, New Jersey, which might surprise some. I think like one thing the university can do is like, okay, well what's the next thing that you can do? And I think it's like passing the mic, giving up like opportunities for professors who want to go to academia and teach what they know and being at like fully funded. Like we live in a capitalistic world. Like people need money, people need housing. And I think like having a program that blends the strengths of Princeton, but also brings in talent from Indian country is like what they can do. But I think like, I think like Princeton does certain things really well so it's like, I think they should just keep trying to do what they do well and not try to be something that they're not.

And I say this when I think of like programs that have high populations of Native Americans, like Princeton will never be like ASU. Princeton will never be like NAU or UNM where you have cultural centers dedicated, to like not just Native people but like, different regions or tribes because so many students attend those universities.

I don't know, what are your thoughts? It’s tough. It's really tough. And I wish there was just one answer to it. And, obviously things are going to change over the next decade. So like, what I say now, even within our times, we were four years apart, like so much what you said, in your time would be different. And I can't even imagine what challenges the Native students now are going to be facing in like 10 years or 15 years. And also just the state of our nation is a big thing too. Like a lot of tribal nations are facing challenges, funding cuts, people are, are displaced and stuff. I don't know, like I can't speak to how current political events like resonate now on campus. I don't understand. I'm not in school here anymore. I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it's like to lose funding for a project.

So it’s tough. Maybe we can give you a better answer in five years or something.

Myra Ridhuan '27 (36:43)

Thank you both for your introspections on that question. And then we'll move on to the next section, which is campus life. There's two questions that I believe could be potentially good based on what you guys have shared so far. So I'll share them both and then you can see which one you believe you want to speak more on. The first one being, do you believe that your Native or Indigenous identity and culture are represented at Princeton? If so, in what ways?

Or the other question, do you see changes in Native and Indigenous representation at Princeton now in comparison to when you were a student at Princeton?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (37:14)

Woo! Want to go first?

Zoe Toledo '18 (37:15)

This is such a good question. When we think about the representation of Native identities here at Princeton over time, it has changed in so many ways. And I think for me, that change is very personal, because, you know, I came here, my sister Keely came here, and then we have a brother, his name is Sam, and he's in his freshman year here. What class is he?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (37:42)

28.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (37:43)

The great class of 2028! Which is so funny and like, it's so different. I remember I came out here last fall when Sam was moving into his dorm and you know, I was on campus not only to kind of be there for him, but CAF had reached out and asked if I would give a speech to, you know, all of the incoming freshmen orientation.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (38:09)

Oh wow!

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (38:11)

Right?

And it was so interesting because I felt like a whole cycle had happened. I was nervous, you know, it's this huge auditorium talking to all the incoming freshmen and I'm like, what story do I tell them? But when I think about this question of representation of Native identity, I can't help but see that through the lens of myself and my siblings, you know, and I think maybe as you've been sharing with your family is so important to us.

And so, that time, you know, I had just gone to breakfast with my mom and my dad and my brother, and we were walking to Sam's dorm, and we were literally just, you know, the little stone wall by Rocky, kind of by the Chase Bank, that wall. My mom, like, she just all of sudden grabbed my brother's and I's hand, and she was like, I need to say this, and she was like, here, sit. And so we sat down, and she was like, I am so proud. She was like, and she told me she was like, you know, Zoe, I was in middle school. And I remember I made a spreadsheet of all the colleges I wanted to go to. Little eighth grade Zoe.

Keely Toledo '22 (39:22)

What a nerd.

Zoe Toledo '18 (39:24)

She had big dreams. And I was just, I never doubted myself. I had such a strong sense of faith of what I wanted to do. Not only for me, not only for the prestige, but just the way that my parents talked about education, the way that they talked about learning and curiosity. And so there we are, we're sitting on that wall and she was like, you you, you were just unwavering.

She told me and she was so proud that like, you know, it started with me and then we had Keely and then now there is Sam. And I remember the first time Sam came to Princeton, it was for my graduation. He was like eight years old. He was just a tiny little thing still.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (40:08)

He was 8?

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:09)

He was 8!

Keely Toledo ‘18 (40:10)

No way.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:11)

No, was he?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (40:12)

No, he was older than that.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:12)

How old was he?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (40:14)

He graduated in 2018.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:15)

Oh, he was probably 12 then.

Keely Toledo '22 (40:19)

No, he was 8. Just kidding. He was 8 years old.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:11)

That's what I thought.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (40:23)

Yeah, sorry.

Zoe Toledo '18 (40:22)

I was like, he was still really young. Anyways, he was young. He was young. And like, you know, I think about for me here at Princeton, identity for me was so fixated on just like connecting, finding a sense of belonging.

Keely Toledo '22 (40:38)

He was 13. Sorry.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (40:39)

Okay, he was 13. That's different than 8.

We're keeping each other honest.

But I think about that moment and like now he's like in his freshman year here and his experience is so different. I think that's probably for me, we literally were raised the same way. We have the same upbringing, but the way that Princeton has us think and reflect about our identity is so different. And I think that's honestly how it always will be.

You will come to this university with your hopes and your dreams. And as you kind of navigate, you know, what inspires you, what brings you curiosity, how you see yourself as for us as Diné or a Navajo woman or Navajo people, it's going to always be individual. But I think what is universal is that we're always balancing the sense of, you know, what is this place taught us? What is it giving us? And how do we balance that with what we know what grounds us. What are your thoughts?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (41:44)

I think I became a lot more confident in expressing outwardly like who I am, where I come from. I think like learned a lot because I was challenged a lot. And I mean, I never really had people saying like, you're not Native. Like, that wasn't really existing, it was more like people would ask me things and I’d be like, you know, I don't know, like, I'm just a kid. I'm just a girl. But I think like having the space and having professors and just like assignments to, allow me to critically engage with our people, our culture as like a nation and as like a political group, or just like as, maybe not political group, but like as like more than one person really helped me like understand just how big Navajo is. It made me understand like, I'm a part of that. And it made me understand also that how I relate to things, how I talk to people, how I connect to things. Parts of it is distinctly influenced by Navajo, Navajo culture, Navajo thought. And we didn't mention this earlier, but within our introductions, when we say our four clans, what I've learned and I've been taught, it's like Navajos believe, we're all connected. We call it k'e, we call it kinship, we call it a network.

And we bring forth our four clans as a way for people to know who we are and where we come from, as a way for the other person to know us. And in that, we also identify kin. We also identify people and family, even if we're not blood relatives, we're somehow clan relatives. We're distantly related. And I think the biggest thing that I had come to learn from my grandpa here was that he was telling me, was like, know, was like, Navajos believe we're all connected and it's up to you to step into that connection. And I think like my story at Princeton, learning to speak loudly against a whole institution really challenged me to saying like, you know what, like I may not be like an elected leader of these people, of our people. I may not be saying the correct thing all the time, but it's like I was given opportunity to step into this space.

And people I've learned the longer that I was here were willing to like listen to what I would say. And I think with that too, like how my identity has changed while I was here was learning to just, to stand in the power that I was allotted here, to stand in that recognition. And I think I learned also a balance of like, there's always a balance of being a speaker for where you come from, but also like hogging the mic or hogging the spotlight. I think that's a big thing because when you're not given that recognition anywhere else, like, I think it's easy to overstay your welcome in a way or just like, it's a balance, like you want to still stay humble and remember like I'm not I'm just a person like I'm not some general or I don't know like I'm not the Pope or anything like, for a lack of better-

Like I'm not some reverent being.

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (44:50)

You know, counsel delegate.

Keely Toledo ‘22 (44:51)

I'm somehow a counsel delegate. And it's strange because it's like a lot of that growth happened outside Navajo nation. Like it happened, I wasn't in our homelands when that happened, but I don't know, I think it reaffirmed to me like being Native, being Navajo, being Diné. It's like it's in here, like, and I think like listening and having those, I don't know, listening to your instincts of when to speak up, people talk about connecting to their ancestors or they talk about having a feeling. And I've heard people talk about like, I just had this thought, like it might have been an ancestor or like, I don't know, like the land spoke to me, but I don't know everything for me and our family. It's like everything is for, it's for the people we love.

And the longer that I came here, like I remember my senior year, I remember someone had asked like, why do all this? Why, why advocate so much? And I think I was in a unique position because I was like, it's for those who come after me. Like I had a strong feeling my brother would come here. So it was like, I'm doing this because I knew if we could take a lot of the challenges while we were here, would make it better for those who came after. And sometimes people don't think that way. They don't think about what they leave or they're all about what can I do? What can I take? What can I accumulate? What can...

Zoe Toledo ‘18 (46:21)

What can happen now?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (46:22)

What can happen now? What can happen for me rather than like, what can I do to help the next person here? What can I do to make sure that this stays? How can I make sure they're taken care of and that they feel held? It's not always easy for someone to be in that position because it requires decentering yourself. And when you're in a place that really promotes and rewards individual action, individual merit, they can like push and pull each other in a way that can be very challenging.

Zoe Toledo '18 (46:51)

I think you're so wise.

Keely Toledo '22 (46:53)

I’ve learned a lot.

Zoe Toledo '18 (46:56)

You have!

Myra Ridhuan '27 (46:56)

Thank you both for sharing your stories on that and your perspectives. I do want to be conscious of time. There is a final question. The final question is, what is your advice for current students and what is your hope for future Native and Indigenous students on Princeton's campus?

Keely Toledo ‘22 (47:11)

My advice for Native students, remember who you are. And I think like it's important to remember why you wanted to come here. Why did you try so hard to get into this school and what is your high school self wanting to achieve and to bring back? And I think like my hope for Native students here is that they're able to go back to the people that they value and that they work so hard for.

And I think that group of people can be very different for each person, whether it be your direct tribal community, whether it's helping other students who are Native in academia, whether it's, you know, supporting Native initiatives in like the government sphere, I think like always remember why, and my hope is to let that guide people in their future actions.

I think if you center people and you really believe in tribal sovereignty, if you really believe in building a community. My hope is also to remember the power of just showing up. Work doesn't just happen on its own. And I think, to also remember it takes time, it takes consistency, and it takes accountability, which are hard things to do. And that's my hope is that people remember why they were fighting and studying so hard to be where they're at now and where they're gonna be in the future.

Zoe Toledo '18 (48:41)

That’s so beautiful. I agree. It is all of that. I think Keely spoke so well and I think we both know that. We felt that. We've lived that. And I think that's something that we wish for our brother and all the Native students who are going to be coming here. I would say my advice, I think it goes back, is like just know who you are, but also take a moment and allow this place to kind of grow you as well. I remember one of the things that my mom taught me and advised me was, you know, there's this practice in Navajo where whenever you are, you know, in a new place, you breathe in four times. Four gentle times to let this place know that you are accepting it, that you are open to it, and that you are now a part of it. And in this way, it's recognizing that you have the agency to choose to participate.

But you also recognize that this place is going to impact you as well. And that exchange, I think, is something that all Native students will feel so keenly, that being here, they know that this place is going to impact and change them, and it's scary, but it can also grow you in ways that you didn't imagine. So come here, take your four breaths, and just be grounded in who you are and who you can become.